The Westeros Watch Part Thirty

Jimmy Impossible and his Ms. (and probably the Moose) had a list of Game of Thrones characters they wanted to see die horrible deaths.

Will Jimmy get what he wanted with the end of season six?  Find out as he and Tom discuss the season ending episodes “Battle of the Bastards” and “The Winds of Winter”.

tomk:  Wow. Those were a pair of big episodes with a lot of game-changing moments, so let’s get to the biggest one of them all: Sam and Gilly finally arrived at the Citadel.

jimmy:  It’s what we’ve been building up to for six seasons when you think about it.

tomk:  Yes. Now we can finally see Sam reading large tomes in a well-lit library as opposed to dank old Castle Black.

jimmy:  His eyes will thank him.

tomk:  Somebody should while Gilly and Little Sam spend the next couple years waiting in the lobby. And won’t Sam be surprised when someone catches him up on everything he missed.

jimmy:  Not much has happened.

tomk:  Nah. Just, like, everything since “Jon died” as far as he seems to know. Nothing huge.

jimmy:  Well, one thing that did happen was my favorite death scene in the series.

tomk:  Kevan Lannister?

Walder Frey’s two sons?

Septa Unella (eventually)?

The Sand Snakes’ dignity in the face of the Queen of Thorns?

Am I close?

jimmy:  One of them is very close…it involves someone standing up…

tomk:  Ah. Ramsay. Wait…he was sitting down…

Unless you mean….Walder Frey?

jimmy:  Yes!

tomk:  He tried to stand up one last time.

jimmy:  I know the death itself was kinda tame, but the whole thing with Arya and killing the sons and baking them like 4 and 20 blackbirds, etc. was just so satisfying.

tomk:  Here’s something else to consider:

At the Red Wedding, Lannister men shot the crowd up with crossbows, Roose Bolton stabbed Robb in the gut with a dagger, and Walder had a henchman slit Cat’s throat.

Tywin died when Tyrion shot him with a crossbow.

Roose was stabbed in the gut by Ramsay.

And Walder had his throat slit.

jimmy:  Well, now I can’t stop thinking about that!

tomk:  A number of GoT deaths come in a manner similar to how people killed others. That could mean the Moon Door for Lyssa or even Ned executed with his own family sword.

jimmy:  I never noticed this trend, but what an interesting set of parallels.

tomk:  It only holds up so much. Jon didn’t kill his own killers the same way.

jimmy:  And Ramsay doesn’t get flayed alive. But at least he’s forking dead!

tomk:  He did feed people to his own hounds.

jimmy:  That is true. You got me on that one.

Sansa was very happy to oblige him with that fate.

tomk:  Ok, I wanna know: you started off the series not particularly fond of either Sophie Turner as an actor or Sansa as a character. How do you feel about her now?

jimmy:  I suppose they’ve both grown on me. Particularly Sansa the character. But I’m not sure about Turner still. I’d be curious how I would feel now watching X-Men: Apocalypse knowing who she is this time. The only issue with that is rewatching X-Men: Apocalypse.

tomk:  We could ask if anyone on Game of Thrones has suffered more than Sansa aside from Theon.

jimmy:  …maybe Tyrion? Probably not more, but one of the serially abused.

Theon probably had it the worst. Sansa has been in some bad situations, and obviously getting raped by Ramsay is not great, but she never really faced the torture that Theon did.

tomk:  You could argue Sansa suffered more or less nonstop from the end of season one up until she arrived at Castle Black. It was psychological more than physical. It made her a different person. Cersei was held prisoner for a couple episodes and humiliated but emerged more or less the same person she always was by contrast.

jimmy:  You are correct. It becomes an argument if the physical torture that Theon suffered is worse than the psychological torture that Sansa suffered? Keep in mind, Theon also had a nice and continuing helping of the physiological torture as well.

And as for Cersei, she didn’t have to endure her “torture” for near the length of time that the other two did. And hate makes her stronger.

tomk:  It also made her careless. The producer chat after the episode suggested Tommen only killed himself because no one was there to comfort him. Had Cersei personally checked on her son, he might not have jumped from that window.

jimmy:  I know I’ve given Tommen a hard time, mostly because he shouldn’t have been put in the position to rule, but that was quite sad when he calmly walked out the window after removing his crown. And you’re right, Cersei was so fixated on getting her revenge that she never saw him taking his own life. Though, she did send the Mountain to keep him from going to the Sept in the first place.

tomk:  That was about all she did.

jimmy:  Hey, she was busy setting up that trap.

tomk:  Yeah, but loving her children was supposed to be her one redeeming quality.

jimmy:  Well, she doesn’t need to worry about that any more.

tomk:  Yeah, now she can dress in black and declare herself queen without a single, solitary claim to the Iron Throne and make who knows how many enemies in the process.

jimmy:  Well, everyone else besides Dany that has tried to claim the throne is dead.

tomk:  People do have a hard time telling the Mountain’s employer no.

You do raise a good point though, Jimmy. Consider if you will the following: the Martells are down to Oberyn’s illegitimate daughers. The Tyrells are gone except for one old woman. The Baratheons are gone except for maybe Gendry. The Boltons are gone. Depending on Bran, there are no male Starks left to carry the name forward. Jon doesn’t count there. And somehow I doubt we’ll be seeing more of the Freys soon.

And that’s not even getting into the mess that is the Greyjoys.

But aside from a complete lack of any real competition when she blew up the Sept of Baelor, the thing that jumped out at me the most was Jaime’s reaction when he got back to King’s Landing.

jimmy:  Well, she blew the place to kingdom come and is now the de facto ruler of Westeros. How would you react?

tomk:  He got back a couple days later and the Sept is still smoking.

But consider it this way: Jaime sacrificed his good name and honor to stop the Mad King from doing the very thing Cersei just did.

jimmy:  True. Though hers was more targeted. But a lot of innocents surely died.

tomk:  Does it matter that much? How different is Cersei from the Mad King at this point?

And as I recall, Tyrion learned she was stockpiling Wildfire back in season two.

jimmy:  Tyrion made good use of it as well, but I get your point.

tomk:  Tyrion also didn’t firebomb a church full of peasants.

But hey, you watched a lot of characters you don’t like die in the past four episodes.

The Waif, the High Sparrow, Ramsay, Walder Frey…

jimmy:  It’s been a good run. 🙂

tomk:  Of course, there was also Rickon, Wun-Wun, Margaery, and, uh, Grand Maester Pycelle, Mace Tyrell, Iron Flowers, and, let’s say, Moe.

jimmy:  Lol

Yes, they have really thinned out the herd heading into next season.

tomk:  

Plus, Dany is finally coming to Westeros.

jimmy:  At last!

tomk:  She had to deal with some other things first.

jimmy:  6 seasons worth of things.

tomk:  Hey, it was worth it. She has a Dothraki horde, the Unsullied, Dorne, Highgarden, half the Iron Islanders, three dragons, and Tyrion is her freakin’ Hand of the Queen.

jimmy:  And Cersei has…King’s Landing…and…not much else…

tomk:  She has Jaime, and, uh, Qyburn and the Mountain.

jimmy:  And Bronn.

tomk:  Bronn, yeah, that guy.

Oh, and there is that other issue for Cersei (and probably Dany)…a new King in the North.

jimmy:  Thank Lady Mormont for that one.

tomk:  She sure is good at shaming adult men.

jimmy:  She’s a little ass kicker.

tomk:  I am coming to the conclusion that everyone in the North is an ass kicker.

jimmy:  Hey, I’m in the North!

tomk:  You and Moose Bolton.

But we haven’t really discussed the battle itself, so, consider this video:

jimmy:  Interesting. But like watching a video narrated by Ryan.

tomk:  You’d rather I narrate a video next time?

I could point out Ned made it to the battle!

jimmy:  The headless horseman?

tomk:  Who else?

It’s Ned Stark there to help!

jimmy:  Not for long.

tomk:  Well, he got a little lost and ran into a charging giant.

But man, between the Battle of the Bastards and Dany ending the siege of Meereen, it was a good episode for fight scenes.

jimmy:  The Battle was phenomenal.

tomk:  It certainly was.

It has been observed that when Jon is in the middle being crushed, it mirrors the end of a previous season when Dany was greeted by happy former slaves and surrounded in a similar, less suffocating manner.

jimmy:  A little more enjoyable for Dany.

tomk:  Well, people like her.

Jon has been the Meg Griffin of the North for far too long.

Or was that Sansa?

No, wait. Theon.

jimmy:  Shut up, Theon.

tomk:  

jimmy:  Haha. Fitting.

tomk:  I know someone else actually put Jon punching Ramsay into a ten minute loop for YouTube.

It’s like people really hated that guy.

jimmy:  Not me.

tomk:  You don’t hate anybody.

You’re a mellow guy.

Except for Watson.

jimmy:  I’m Canadian.

Everyone hates Watson.

But seriously. Fork you, Ramsay!

tomk:  For a show that just about never gives fans a poetic justice kind of ending for a clear cut villain, or even all that many clear cut villains, Ramsay sure did go out the right way.

jimmy:  And then they sent him off to star on Inhumans. I’m not sure which was a worse punishment.

tomk:  OK, as someone who knows Inhumans are not now nor never were a Thing, casting that guy as Maximus the Mad was actually not a dumb move.

jimmy:  Since I’ve never seen it I can’t really comment.

tomk:  Just knowing what the character should be told me it was a smart casting choice.

But I still don’t want to watch it and confirm that for myself.

jimmy:  Agreed.

tomk:  So, let’s see…Dany got her ships, there are Starks controlling Winterfell again, Cersei cleaned house…was there anything really big I am forgetting beyond the heartbreak of Daario?

jimmy:  I was a bit surprised he got left behind.

tomk:  He doesn’t mix well at high society galas.

jimmy:  Heh. Well, at least he wasn’t killed off like most people that “leave the show”, so we may see him again.

tomk:  Perhaps. It’s not like a Benjen Stark situation.

jimmy:  Now that guy we’ll definitely never see again!

tomk:  Bran could see things.

jimmy:  I think Bran has seen enough…and now we have a new lineage for Jon.

tomk:  And a lot of new significance.

jimmy:  And prior to Bran’s “vision”, this was only known by Ned? He wasn’t there alone though. Must be a few people along the way back to Winterfell that had some idea it wasn’t his son.

tomk:  Howland Reed apparently knows.

Littlefinger hinted Lyanna wasn’t kidnapped.

jimmy:  You can’t trust that guy.

tomk:  Martin supposedly sold the rights to the story to anyone who could correctly guess Jon’s parentage.

There’s always been plenty of clues for the R + L = J crowd.

jimmy:  Well, it shocked us.

tomk:  Most of the hints came from the book, like how Arya is the only Stark to look like Jon and she resembles Lyanna, how Ned never actually called Jon his son but only his blood, the very idea that Ned would cheat on Cat seeming way out of character, how he never really told anyone who Jon’s mother was…

jimmy:  I don’t remember the timeline, but he brings Jon home after his marriage to Cat? And after Robb’s birth?

tomk:  Robb and Jon were roughly the same age, and yes, he was married to Cat. That’s why she never liked Jon.

jimmy:  But Jon’s awesome!

tomk:  He should be. He’s half Targaryen.

Half Stark.

Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.

Winner of the Battle of the Bastards.

Slayer of White Walkers.

Friend to the Wildlings.

Oh, and he didn’t stay dead.

But then ask yourself: why did Ned agree to keep quiet and not even tell Cat.

jimmy:  He promised his sister.

tomk:  Yes, but consider the significance.

Why did Robert Baratheon start Robert’s Rebellion?

jimmy:  Blood is thicker than Baratheons. Plus, was the alternative better?

tomk:  Yeah, but it sure doesn’t look like a kidnapping now, does it?

Robert may have turned Westeros into the chaos pit it is for a woman who wasn’t in love with him.

jimmy:  Which Robert probably knew. And also knew that it wasn’t a kidnapping.

tomk:  Except…it looks like he didn’t know that.

There’s a really good chance Robert never knew Lyanna went with Rhaegar by choice.

That’s the story spread around the Seven Kingdoms, that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna. It’s only people like Littlefinger who seem to think otherwise.

Ned didn’t seem to know when he arrived at the Tower of Joy. He only learned the truth when he went inside and saw the baby.

jimmy:  Fair enough.

tomk:  Besides, what would Robert have done to that baby if he knew? He wanted Dany dead and she was stuck on Essos.

jimmy:  …that’s true too.

You’re very learned, Papa Homer.

tomk:  And isn’t it such a Ned thing to make a promise and, well, keep it for 17 years?

And it’s pronounced learn’d.

jimmy:  True on both counts.

tomk:  Hey, Jon might be the rightful heir of the Iron Throne for all we know.

But not if he’s still a bastard. Anything you want to add we didn’t cover, Jimmy?

jimmy:  You’d think they’re be a lot, but one of the “problems” with having half an episode being one of the greatest fight scenes ever put on film is that it doesn’t give you a lot to talk about.

That said, I think the most significant things we never touched on were Melisandre’s banishing (and the events surrounding it) and Cersei’s revenge on Septa Unella.

tomk:  It was not a good pair of episodes for religious women. But it did show the difference between Cersei and Jon. Possibly Jon and Ned as well.

jimmy:  Well, we didn’t need much evidence about the differences between Jon and Cersei. What are you thinking about the Jon/Ned comparison?

tomk:  Ned didn’t compromise on moral/honor issues and might have gone along with Davos in a legal situation like that.

jimmy:  Ah. Good point. I think you’re right. Ned would have executed her.

tomk:  But her story clearly isn’t over yet.

jimmy:  I have a feeling it is for this season.

tomk:  Isn’t everybody’s?

jimmy:  Maybe. 🙂

tomk:  Then let’s move on to season seven and its seven episodes.

jimmy:  7?!?! What a ripoff!!!

And so our Watch continues.  Be back soon as Tom and Jimmy finally venture into season seven with the episodes “Dragonstone” and “Stormborn”.