March 2, 2024

Gabbing Geek

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The Westeros Watch Part Nineteen

Jimmy and Tom have long noticed Game of Thrones doesn't sit still. See what they have to say about the season four episodes "Mockingbird" and "The Mountain and the Viper".

Jimmy is getting quite the education on the world of Westeros.  See what he and Tom have to say about the season four episodes “Mockingbird” and “The Mountain and the Viper”.

tomk:  Well, you wanted to know who the champions would be, and you wanted someone to go through that Moon Door, but you probably weren’t expecting any of that.

jimmy:  Was I expecting Lyssa out the moon door? Nope. Oberyn to be Tyrion’s champion? Not at all. The Mountain to be Cersei’s champion? Well, that one was pretty obvious. 🙂

tomk:  She’s not subtle.

jimmy:  I will say that when episode 6 ended I said to the Ms what a fantastic strategic move asking for the trial by combat was. Knowing that Tyrion would choose Jaime, it would put Tywin in a terrible position. They even discussed this briefly at the beginning of 7, but alas, it took it’s own course.

tomk:  Interesting theory. Wrong on many levels, but interesting.

jimmy:  Don’t hold back, Tom! I want you to tell me how stupid I really am! :-p

tomk:  No, I wish I had thought of that. Damn, that would have been awesome.

jimmy:  Nice try. 😉

tomk:  But Oberyn was introduced for a reason.

jimmy:  To have his head popped open like a melon at the worst Medieval Gallagher show ever apparently.

tomk:  See, violence rarely solves problems on GoT.

He wanted revenge and got too close to the Mountain before that giant slab of flesh completely died.

jimmy:  Once the champions had been chosen I really wasn’t sure how all this was going to play out. I couldn’t see Oberyn losing, as it would mean a death sentence for Tyrion. At the same time, I didn’t think they would kill off the Mountain. But this is Game of Thrones, so who knows?

tomk:  Maybe Tyrion getting a death sentence is the expected thing for Game of Thrones.

jimmy:  Yes…but Tyrion can’t die!

tomk:  Then we need to wait for his escape.

Or he becomes one with The Force and becomes a ghost.

jimmy:  How come Qui-Gon never became a ghost?

tomk:  Liam Neesom won’t play transparent?

jimmy:  Perhaps. In either case, I’m pretty sure that’s not Tyrion’s fate.

Oberyn’s death was a pretty jaw dropping moment though.

tomk:  His jaw was all that was left over in one piece to drop.

jimmy:  Gah! But accurate.

tomk:  We may have a new winner for Most Memorable Death after that guy who got a sword through the face.

jimmy:  You love that guy, but yeah, this is probably the most memorable death so far. Outside of that wedding thing.

But that was more circumstance.

tomk:  Well, it was a memorable individual death. And “memorable” doesn’t have to mean “awesome” or “something someone had coming.” Prince Oberyn was a fairly likable character. Heck, it probably helped actor Pedro Pascal get parts in movies like Kingsman II and The Great Wall, and one of those was fun.

jimmy:  I have seen neither. But yes, Pedro was quite good. Now, if only Oberyn hadn’t gone all Inigo Montoya, he might still be on the show today.

tomk:  Look, if it were easy to kill the Mountain, there’d be no Brotherhood Without Banners.

jimmy:  Oh, but he had it won!

tomk:  Then why is his head as much a pile of mush as Orson Lannister’s beetles?

jimmy:  Pride goeth before the fall.

tomk:  And there was something almost biblical about the whole thing.

jimmy:  Especially the head exploding thing. That happens in the Bible a lot.

tomk:  Indy told Oberyn not to look when they opened the Ark of the Covenant.

jimmy:  Lol

tomk:  All that impressive flipping around didn’t mean much, and he couldn’t even get partial revenge for the brutal deaths of his sister and her children.

jimmy:  That was mostly for show. And he would have had his revenge if he had just killed him and gotten it over with. But nooooo….

tomk:  And that’s why Trial By Combat is a bad idea.

Also a bad idea: having a Moon Door.

jimmy:  Lol. I got the feeling Lyssa was going through the Moon Door when Littlefinger pushed her into it.

tomk:  You know, considering his last words to her, she died badly on many, many levels.

jimmy:  Not surprising though. And Arya found the whole situation rather amusing.

tomk:  How often does anybody get to laugh in this world?

jimmy:  Rarely. And usually at something you or I wouldn’t be laughing at. Watson maybe.

tomk:  We laugh at Watson?

jimmy:  Well yes, but I meant Watson might be laughing at the things we find inappropriate to do so.

tomk:  Ah.

jimmy:  A failed attempt at humor. Again.

tomk:  So, getting back to Lyssa, I suggested Sansa could be becoming more like Littlefinger. We’ve now seen that is very much the case.

jimmy:  The dark hair and plunging neckline is a dead giveaway.

tomk:  Or, you know, the flat-out lying and manipulation of other people.

jimmy:  Oh. Right. Yeah, that too.

tomk:  Sansa coming clean to the nobles of the Vale is a change from Martin’s book where she just dyes her hair black and poses as a bastard daughter of Littlefinger’s. And…that’s about it. There’s very little Sansa material left from the books now.

jimmy:  Oh really?

tomk:  Yeah. Most of her appearances in books four and five are about lessons from Littlefinger as the Aerie is closed for the winter and they travel down the mountainside.

jimmy:  Exciting!

tomk:  Well, you knew they ran out of book material a while ago.

jimmy:  Having only read 1/3 of book one, I don’t know what comes from what.

tomk:  Ah, but Sansa just owned Littlefinger at his own game, saving his ass out of her own self-interest.

jimmy:  Definitely a Littlefinger thing to do.

tomk:  But is it too late for Sansa to still be a decent person? We’re used to seeing Sansa as mostly a naive victim up to this point.

jimmy:  Not too late. And good to see her making moves for herself instead of being a victim/pawn.

tomk:  Someone finally made an effort to teach her something. Too bad he’s a lecherous creep with a thing for a girl half his age.

But as an aside, how are enjoying the book so far?

jimmy:  Good. Though it is pretty much spot on with season one so far. Will be more interesting a comparison when paths start to diverge.

tomk:  Of course. Any characters standing out in a special way regardless?

jimmy:  Not so far. The story is pretty close to what I’ve seen on screen. It can take some mental effort to reconcile some of the ages in the book compared with their older big screen counterparts.

tomk:  True enough. So, how about Dany getting laid and banishing Jorah?

jimmy:  Well, he did betray her. Given the usual way this show goes, he’s lucky his head is still attached.

tomk:  It’s something he’s probably come to regret. And he did save her from an assassin he knew was coming.

Plus, he’s devoted to her more than any other follower she has.

jimmy:  That is very clear, and I think even through her rage and hurt, Dany sees that as well. Hence he is banished instead of becoming a plaything for dragons.

tomk:  Unless he tries to come back.

I am sure you know we haven’t seen the last of Ser Jorah Mormont.

jimmy:  Unless I see a sword go through their face, I believe anyone can return.

tomk:  White Walker: Hold my beer.

jimmy:  Heh.

But outside of the Jorah situation, am I wrong to feel like the guy asking for the crucified masters to be taken down is “playing” Dany?

tomk:  Um, maybe?

In what way?

jimmy:  I’m not sure…he just seems…untrustworthy. Maybe it’s just me.

tomk:  Well, I don’t know about how trustworthy he is (OK, I may), but my feeling is he’s more a cypher right now, someone without much personality to judge one way or the other. He’s got less going on anywhere than Grey Worm has nads.

jimmy:  He might not physically, but he has them where it counts.

tomk:  Checking out the translator?

jimmy:  Indeed.

tomk:  He’s doing better than Roman and Tej in that regard.

jimmy:  LOL…well, maybe Roman.

tomk:  Grey Worm knows her full name!

jimmy:  Even with minimum mastery of the common tongue, he’s a smooth operator.

tomk:  It’s like your mother always said: just be yourself.

jimmy:  Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.

tomk:  And don’t be Ser Alliser Thorne.

Or someone in Mole’s Town that isn’t a refugee Wildling with a baby.

jimmy:  Just a hunch, but if Gilly wasn’t a “main” character, I don’t think Ygritte hesitates to kill them.

tomk:  Or Ygritte knows a Wildling when she sees one.

Or she isn’t as bad as we thought.

She knows the Thenns would kill them both.

jimmy:  Oh, right about her being a Wildling as well. good point.

tomk:  Lousy Thenns…

Thenns and their cannibalism are right up there with Forking Ramsay and his everything.

jimmy:  Too bad they can’t meet each other.

tomk:  That would be too helpful.

So, what caught your eye more? Ramsay being Ramsay and skinning those guys or the Wildlings closing in on Castle Black and Jon’s suggestions being ignored?

jimmy:  Well, neither is really surprising, especially Ramsay. But those guys hate Jon for being Jon and refuse to listen to him.

tomk:  The Wildlings probably aren’t fans of his either.

jimmy:  Well, no, but Jon has been out there and survived. You’d think what he has to say would hold more weight with them.

tomk:  To be fair, destroying the tunnel did present its own problems as Thorne pointed out.

jimmy:  They are insignificant compared to an army of the dead.

tomk:  Forget the Army of the Dead. There’s 100,000 or so Wildlings headed straight for them.

jimmy:  Yes. But even if they believe they can defeat them…

It’s another “theme” of the show, putting tradition before common sense. “The Black has defended the Wall for X years and we’ll do it again.”

tomk:  Well, I can point out episode nine for this season is titled “The Watchers on the Wall,” so we’ll know in good time.

jimmy:  And nothing big ever happens in episode nines.

tomk:  Yeah, everyone joins hands and sings “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”.

jimmy:  Awww…that’s so sweet. It’s nice to see everyone getting along. Isn’t that so much better than axing each other to death?

tomk:  Clearly, that’s for episodes eight and ten.

jimmy:  And speaking of 8’s and 10’s, we have Melisandre in the bath.

tomk:  Um, right. Mrs. Stannis is the 10? Or Daario?

jimmy:  I dunno, but boobs.

tomk:  Daario is a bit of a boob.

Though Melisandre is known for being a bit of a temptress to all kinds of men.

jimmy:  heh. Dany seems to like…parts of him anyway.


jimmy:  A hot girl with Milhouse’s face…that’s not disturbing…

tomk:  You’d rather deal with a shadow baby?

Besides, this is Stannis’ wife circa 1993:

White censor bars added by unknown forces. Possibly White Walkers.

jimmy:  Is that Hugh Grant? Who’d have thought lighting people on fire and keeping dead babies in glass jars would constitute a step up.

tomk:  That is Hugh Grant. Actress Tara Fitzgerald (Mrs. Stannis) has a decent film career in the 90s. That movie is called Sirens, and features Grant, Sam Neil, Elle MacPherson, and Portia de Rossi. The women get naked a bit.

The men? Not so much.

jimmy:  I’ve actually seen that. But I couldn’t tell you anything about it besides Elle MacPherson getting nekid.

tomk:  Well, now one of those women is Mrs. Stannis. Keeper of the Baby Jars.

jimmy:  I’d have never known. See, these chats are good for something.

tomk:  You remembered a nekid Elle MacPherson. That must have been nice.

As nice as a sudden appearance by Hot Pie? Probably not, but it’s always nice to see someone prospering.

jimmy:  Hot Pie. I love that kid.

tomk:  He’s gotten better at wolf bread.

jimmy:  Practice! Practice! Practice!

And finding the right ingredients is key.

tomk:  Everyone loves a good Hot Pie.

So, any thoughts on Theon or Daario or anyone else?

jimmy:  Well, we’ve know since Daario 1.0 that he was enraptured with Dany, so he finally gets his wish. But I think he is blind to Jorah’s love for her, as his boasting didn’t seem to be an attempt to hurt him.

tomk:  Daario doesn’t seem to be aware of a lot of people’s feelings.

jimmy:  Only his own.

tomk:  Is he even aware of Dany’s?

And does she want anything from him besides sex?

jimmy:  Him to lead the Second Sons.

tomk:  So, not so much love as lust.

Should I ask what Ms. Impossible thinks of the whole Daario vs. Jorah thing?

jimmy:  He’s no Drogo.

I dunno. She hasn’t really said much along those lines.

tomk:  What do you think? Should she keep Jorah around? He does offer good advice, and despite his original intentions, he’s committed to her now. Heck, he did successfully curve some of her nastier instincts.

jimmy:  I think she is deeply hurt. So it might take her some time to forgive and forget. Also, need to look at it in a couple of other ways. First, if she let’s him stick around, how does that reflect on her? Will others see her as soft? And second, even if she did forgive him and let him stay, would anyone else trust him? Ser Barrisatan has already said Jorah would never be allowed to be alone with her again.

tomk:  He would need to earn a lot of trust back, not just Dany’s.

I’m not saying she is wrong. It’s just we’ve seen that Jorah is a good ally. Heck, Tywin set that whole thing up because he’s a good ally.

So, Tywin sees her as more of a threat than he used to at any rate.

jimmy:  Tywin’s no fool.

tomk:  Yeah, he does tend to cause trouble as needed to maintain power.

That said, we should consider one difference between Dany and a lot of the other people aspiring to the Iron Throne: she does tend to surround herself with advisors who soften her approach and successfully question her first decisions. Even Robb didn’t necessarily listen when someone suggested he do something else.

jimmy:  Stannis has advisors. That seems to be working out well for him.

tomk:  But are they advisors who curb his worst instincts that he actively listens to? Davos has some limited success, but Stannis is still a rigid man.

Considering much of the advice that he gets and follows involves burning people at the stake, I would say he’s not doing much better.

jimmy:  Stannis listens too much to the Red Woman.

tomk:  And the Red Woman indulges Stannis in certain ways, fluffing up his ego and telling him he’s destined for greatness.

jimmy:  She fluffs something for sure.

Arya got the joke…

tomk:  I set that one up. I can see that.

jimmy:  Heh

Speaking of fluffing, someone that isn’t getting fluffed…Reek.

tomk:  Yeah, uh, yeah.

Can you believe you might have ever felt bad for Theon Greyjoy?

jimmy:  I’ve never disliked Theon. Even his time at Winterfell felt misguided and confusing. I felt bad for him then too. Not as much as how of course.

tomk:  Huh. And Ms. Impossible never wanted Jaime to suffer either, unlike, say Cersei or Joffrey.

jimmy:  Not that I can think of. She’s a fan now for sure.

tomk:  And Jaime is no saint.

He’s a better man than his in-show reputation, and he’s a better person than his twin sister or his father.

jimmy:  He’s the second best Lannister, no doubt.

tomk:  Well, no one is as good a Lannister as Tyrion, and that’s not even getting into the extended family like Tywin’s brother Kevan or Kevan’s son Lancel. And Kevan is also a pretty decent dude.

The other Lannister brothers.

jimmy:  But in this world, who can take a guy named Kevan seriously? C’mon…Kevan?

tomk:  You’ve seen the guy once or twice, usually at Tywin’s council of war.

But that’s neither here nor there.

And Kevan (in the books) is nice to Tyrion. I don’t think they do more than exchange a nod on the show.

jimmy:  So I think that mostly just leaves the adventures of Arya and The Hound.

tomk:  She learned the fastest way to euthanize a mortally wounded man.

And what happened to those two guys who were locked in that cage with Jaqen H’ghar.

And why human bites are bad.

jimmy:  Also, “Fire bad!”

tomk:  I didn’t need the Hound to tell me that.

jimmy:  Exactly.

Anything else before we watch the staff mop up what’s left of Oberyn’s head?

tomk:  Not from me. Almost done season four. Can you believe it?

jimmy:  I cannot. It helps they are only 10 episodes long.

tomk:  Well, then, let us finish up season four and see how the Watchers on the Wall deal with things and how Tyrion’s execution goes.

jimmy:  I have a feeling…not as expected…

tomk:  Well, good news. You finally got Game of Thrones figured out.

jimmy:  Wahoo!

And so our Watch continues.  Be back soon when Tom and Jimmy discuss the end of season four with “The Watchers on the Wall” and “The Children”.